Marty said, “I am NOT an SP!” – Sig Interviews

Marty Rathbun - Theory of Reality

In the last excerpt from the interview with Sig, you heard about how Marty figured that LRH would be an illegal PC if he came back now, and would not be welcomed in the Church at all.

And how Marty believes that LRH would want the church destroyed and to start over.

Thank you for all your comments about that –  I’m glad to hear it wasn’t just me that thought that Marty was absolutely crazy.

At the end of that section Sig started talking about ser facs, and that section of the interview will be what I cover in this posting.

=  =  =

Sig:  We were standing on the deck of the second shack early one morning, leaning on the rail and looking out across the channel at the other houses across the water.

Joe:  Hang on – the second shack?

Sig:  Yes.  This was the second shack.  When we talked about how Marty said LRH wanted the Church destroyed that was the first shack, and the first time I met him.  This was a later time, after I had become a PC and had auditing from him, and was at the second shack.

Joe:  OK.  Carry on.

Sig:  Marty and Mosey would get up real early usually – like 4 or 5 am – and go to the gym.  Mosey was in good shape physically and Marty was working to slim down and catch up.  Apart from the gym he was also doing exercises and things to try improve his eyesight so he would not have to wear contact lenses or glasses any more.

Anyway, it was real early for me and we were on the deck chatting and Mosey came and asked us if we wanted breakfast.  Marty asked me if I wanted breakfast and I said, “Yes.”  He said, “Eggs?  How many?  Have three.  I always have three,” and Mosey went off to make them.  Like a hotel really, she was into running a guest house, and playing at being a waitress.

Joe:  So you stayed at the Shack?  I thought you would have stayed at a local hotel or something.

Sig;  No, no. I stayed at the shack and I think most people did that.  At that one they had a spare room downstairs, directly under the kitchen – like on the side closer to the road, except that there was the garage between that and the road.  There was a bathroom off the hallway opposite the stairs, and Marty’s office was the other end, looking across the water.

Joe:  What if they had several people to stay?

Sig:  I don’t know what they would have done then.  There was only ever me staying over, although I did meet other people there, they went off at the end of the day.   Don’t know where they would have put anyone else.  Upstairs they had the living room, the kitchen bordered on that and then there was a short hallway, a bathroom off it, the stairs down and their bedroom – which was above his office.  That side of the shack.  When you came up the stairs on the outside you went straight into the living area.

Joe:  OK.  I sidetracked you.  Tell me about the conversation on ser facs.

Sig:  Well, we were talking about auditing and I said something about how I had had great wins handling a ser fac in earlier auditing, and Marty became quite animated at that point.  He said, “Exactly!  Ser facs are the lost technology as far as I am concerned.  They aren’t handled right and they should be much more prominently handed.  Ser fac tech should be used liberally.  We are going to be handling ser facs in our next session.”

Joe:  He told you that?  Before you went in session?

Sig:  Yes.  I always knew what he had planned in session before we went in.  I didn’t like it to be honest.

Joe:  It’s totally out-tech!

Sig:  Is it?  I didn’t know.  Maybe that’s why I didn’t like it.

Joe:  OK. Carry on.

He told me that when he was training he had this huge cognition about ser facs and how they were the whole point of Scientology, the crux.  They were the thing that Scientology was primarily there to handle.  If you didn’t handle the ser facs then there was no real point in having handled Dianetics, or the Grades or whatever, as the ser facs would just get in the way.  In fact, he felt that if you handled ser facs, you almost didn’t need to handle engrams and grades and so on – ser facs were that important.

According to Marty, he had told this to COB when he came back from his training.  He had written up something about how this was the thing he had found was out on cases he was debugging.  But COB never did anything with the data and instead came out with Golden Age of Tech.

I asked Marty if ser fac handling was missing from the Golden Age of Tech Training and he said that it wasn’t missing, but that you could never drill someone into finding a ser fac.  He got on his high horse about drilling and how it was bad because it made people who couldn’t think!

I know.  Don’t try understanding it Joe!  Marty hates the Golden Age of Tech with a vengeance.

But on the ser facs thing, I really wasn’t tracking with what Marty was trying to tell me and I told him that I had had ser fac handling from a Golden Age of Tech auditor and that it had totally keyed me out – the best wins I had ever had.  That was why I had mentioned ser fac handling at the start of this conversation.

I wasn’t trying to make him wrong, or challenge him particularly.  It’s just that was true and I thought he wouldn’t mind if I said something that was true.

Well that was another time I saw that insane evil kind of thing that I told you about.

It just flashed across his face, and he got it under control and then he got more insistent in explaining to me how COB was wrong not to have gone with Marty’s discovery about ser facs. But it was scary.  I got the message that it was not wise to cross Marty.

Because of that . . . an implied threat really  . . .  I became acutely aware of my surroundings and what was going on.  I turned on a hot flush and it was quite embarrassing.

I still didn’t understand what Marty was saying.  He was saying ser fac handling wasn’t done, but I knew that it was part of Golden Age of Tech and was being done.

From later conversations with him I now know that Marty’s point was that ser facs should be handled in cramming, in ethics, almost any time anyone had trouble, but I was a bit too scared just then to continue asking him to clarify and so I played stupid and I asked him why he thought that COB would have ignored his comm about ser facs.

I can’t claim to remember everything that Marty ever told me perfectly clearly and verbatim, but that LRH thing and this here, and a few other instances, those I do remember perfectly because they startled me in some way.

What he said here, I remember perfectly, verbatim, because of the way he said it.

He answered, without any comm lag at all, “Because he is an SP.”

I asked him how he . . . how Marty . . . could be so certain about that and he said, “Because I am not an SP.”  Again an instant statement, no comm lag.  “Because I am not an SP.”

Joe:  What? Just like that.

Sig:  That explained everything for Marty.   That COB was an SP and Marty was not an SP.   I have seen someone else write on the internet about a similar occurrence.   Marty dismissing COB with the statement that he is an SP, and bizarrely following that with a statement that Marty is not an SP.

The way he said he was not an SP I got an immediate picture of him being implanted with a command “You are not an SP.”  I struggle to explain how weird it was, but the way he said it, the speed he said it and so on made me think that I was talking to a reactive mind – something that had no time in it.  It was a flash answer.  Both were.  “COB is an SP.”  “I am not an SP.”  Hard to explain.

I don’t know about you, but the way I read the tech on SPs, one of the most sure ways to identify an SP is someone who insists they are not . . . someone who thinks that none of the 12 characteristics of an SP applies to them.

Joe:  That’s right.  They are not able to look in at themselves – I think LRH says something along the lines of  “Self criticism is not a luxury the SP can afford.”

Sig:  Something like that.  Well it was the instantness and the certainty with which he said it that really got to me.

These were two absolutes for Marty that explained everything.  COB is an SP so everything he ever does is evil.  Marty is not an SP so everything he ever does is OK.

Joe:  Well I have the PTS SP pack here – I’ll look it up.

Sig:  Ok.  Do that.  But while you find it let me just finish explaining what happened.

After he said that I asked him if COB had ever done anything good for Scientology or anyone, and again he instantly said, “No.  Never.  He is an SP.  He is trying to destroy Scientology.”

The reason I asked that by the way, is the LRH datum that absolutes are unobtainable, and that poem “There is so much bad in the best of us and so much good in the worst of us that it ill behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us.”

His answer really annoyed me, because it was an outright lie.  I mean, if COB was trying to destroy Scientology, you would have thought he would have accomplished that in all the years he has been there, or at least done a better job of destroying it.  Instead its expanding.  LRH left in ’86, so that is twenty . . .

Joe:  25 years.

Sig:  Yes.  25 years.  On the one hand Marty complains that COB holds all the purse strings; has a small army of people who enforce his orders; is a law unto himself; unopposed by anyone; and can do anything he wants.

And on the other he is suggesting that in 25 years of focused, dedicated effort, and with that much power and money he has failed to destroy the Church.  It is so implausible as to be a joke.

And then I realized that Marty’s cognition had been true to a degree – the problem is ser facs.  But it is Marty’s ser facs that are the problem, not everyone else’s.  Marty was just talking about his own case – and he was the one dramatizing ser facs.

Sure everyone has ser facs, but they are handled in Grade 4 and I also heard of a Ser Fac Rundown if people need it.    But Marty is the one with ser facs or computations that haven’t been or can’t be handled.

It all became clear to me and I nearly laughed aloud.  Realizing that made me feel slightly braver.  I remember looking out across the water, getting some space and deciding to test Marty somewhat.   I wanted to ask Marty if he had any ser facs, but I wasn’t quite that brave.

I asked him. “If COB is an SP and his goal is to destroy Scientology, then why has he done the Basics, for example?”

Marty asked what I was talking about and so I said words to the effect of, “Well he has gone through the books and got them completely verified and corrected, he put glossaries and indexes in them so people could easily read them and understand them, he got all the accompanying tape lectures dug out, transcribed and made available, at a very low cost.  On top of that they have been translated into many languages and almost everyone is being made to buy more and study them.”

Whatever the words I used, I got across the concept that the materials have been collected up, cleaned up and pumped out into every corner of the planet that can be reached.

No one could suppress Scientology out of existence now – the tech has been spread too far and too wide.  So how is that the work of an SP trying to suppress Scientology?  I just couldn’t see it.

Marty’s reply was really strange.  He asked if I remembered the Cat Handlings in the early ‘80s, which I do –

Joe:  What are the Cat Handlings?  [Joe.  I have clarified that the Cat Handlings were an abbreviation for Catastrophe Handlings]

Sig:  You don’t remember the Cat Handlings?  They were handlings done to avert catastrophe at the Pubs orgs . . . it’s beside the point what they were.  The thing is that he was trying to say . . .   Oh, forget it.  It’s not important and I can’t be bothered trying to understand his warped thinking.

The point I was making was that an SP might have recalled all LRH books and burned them, or issued false technology in LRH’s name, or caused Bridge and NEP [Joe: New Era Publications – or Bridge in Europe] to close down, or stopped people studying or anything.

But making the tech easily available to one and all and insisting they study it is the exact opposite of what I think an SP would do if they were trying to suppress the tech.

And Marty’s argument is that he is hobby horsing or some such and that it actually is suppressive because he should have been getting people’s ser facs handled instead, and if he had just been doing that, then everything would be much better off.

Joe:  OK, here it is.  Page 255 of the Ethics Specialist Course.

Sig:  There!  That’s the other thing!  That just never sat right with me.  Marty says COB is an SP and he complains that COB has done something to the PTS SP tech.  But, the thing is, everyone I know has been made to study the PTS SP Course.

So why would an SP get the course about detecting SPs re-done, and then force everyone to study it?

I don’t get it.  I think an SP would try to hide that tech, to say it doesn’t work, it’s historical and not used now, or something.  But to make everyone study it?  Sorry.  Doesn’t add up.

Joe:  OK.  Here it is.  He says, “Self-criticism is a luxury the antisocial cannot afford.”  Hey, I was spot on.

Sig:  Let me see.   . . .

Wow!  Look at this!  Just above that in the same section he says.


“The basic reason the antisocial personality behaves as he or she does lies in a hidden terror of others.

“To such a person every other being is an enemy, an enemy to be covertly or overtly destroyed.

“The fixation is that survival itself depends on “keeping others down” or “keeping people ignorant.

“If anyone were to promise to make others stronger or brighter, the antisocial personality suffers the utmost agony of personal danger.

“They reason that if they are in this much trouble with people around them weak or stupid, they would perish should anyone become strong or bright.”

See.  That is what I was saying.

Marty is the guy that wants to destroy Scientology.  I mean, he stated that to me to my face, and he has said as much on his blog, and in the media.  And by his actions that is exactly what he is trying to do.  He has a fixation on it.

So this line, “The fixation is that survival itself depends on “keeping others down” or “keeping people ignorant”,” describes him exactly.  He doesn’t want there to be orgs where people can get trained.  He doesn’t want there to be the Basic books where people can understand Scientology.  He doesn’t want Scientology available.  That is why he attacks the Church and the publication and dissemination facilities.  It describes him perfectly.

Joe:  Yep.  And this next one describes COB.

Sig:  “If anyone were to promise to make others stronger or brighter.”

That is what COB is doing.  He is trying to get everyone to understand all the basic Scientology books and materials so they really do become stronger and brighter.

Right.  That is what is causing Marty the pain and the fear. “The antisocial personality suffers the utmost agony of personal danger.”

As usual, LRH has nailed it.  This describes Marty perfectly.

You know, since I really cognited on how I had been duped by him I have come to really value Marty in a strange way.  I know that must be a weird thing to hear me say, because falling for his bullshit has been really destructive across all my dynamics.

But on the plus side, he has been a real education for me on Scientology basics. I mean I now really understand the PTS SP Tech.  I really understand the value of Policy.  I really appreciate the Tech.  I really appreciate ethics tech.

It’s kind of like a near death experience gets you into PT and makes you appreciate being alive when you had been taking it for granted.  Well that is kind of how I feel.  Not of course that I am recommending you or anyone try it.  I’m just saying that I now value Scientology so much more than I ever did.

See – even an SP like Marty has some value.  He is not ALL bad.

Joe:  I am surprised that other people have not cognited like you have.

Sig:  Oh, they have.  Remember what I said in the beginning about the social life, well, those that have been around a while understand what is actually going on.

Hang on – I was looking up ser fac and I just had a thought.  That whole “COB is an SP –  Marty is not an SP” thing is a computation itself.

That is his main ser fac!  That is the computation that he uses to make others wrong and explain his condition.  That’s it!

If you look at everything he says, you see that computation in there.  According to Marty, every single thing COB has ever done is evil.  Even if it seemed to have a social result, the motivation was always evil.

And on the other hand, everything Marty has ever done is good.  His gross out tech, his committing the highest of high crimes., his compromising LRH and the tech in the media – all these things are, in Marty’s universe, acceptable because he is not an SP and these things have to be done to handle the actual SP.

It’s sooo twisted!

=  =  =

OK. I am cutting this off here.  We went on to talk about Sig’s ser fac session and other things.  Next time I think I will fill you all in on the first part of the interview where Sig talked about how it was to be a squirrel.


I’d like to know your thoughts on the above though.